On-Demand Webinar: How to Unlock the Next Wave of Growth with Developer Education
We recently had the pleasure of hosting Raghu Viswanathan, VP Education, Academia and Documentation at MongoDB, on our latest LinkedIn Live to discuss developer education.
On this page, you can watch the entire conversation on-demand in the video below, read a summarized overview of the webinar, or scroll further down to read the transcript in its entirety.
Here is a summarized overview of the conversation:
Tell me about Education at MongoDB?
Education Group at MongoDB is made up of 3 functions all teams share a common passion for educating people on MongoDB.
MongoDB University – online training function that provides free training with a rich learning experience which includes our lab technology (hands on exercises).
MongoDB Docs – online tech docs which is a huge source of learning for Developers.
MongoDB Academia – outreach program to colleges and universities. We work with professors to include Document Databases into their curriculum with MongoDB as the exemplar for that and we also provide ways to students to experience MongoDB faster by going where they are through hackathons, student offers and in the classroom.
Why is this important to MongoDB?
Data and Innovation drive the economy and developers are the center of this. MongoDB is a Developer Centric company - passionate about developers and making them successful. Our Developer Data platform is designed to help developers focus on building great applications with great features and focus on differentiation. Developers don’t have to worry about the underlying infrastructure. We use Atlas, our Managed Database cloud service to power that infrastructure.
The underpinning of that is the Document Data Model which MongoDB has been championing since 2010. The proof is in the numbers over 300 million downloads from over 100 countries, 4500 employees and over $1B in revenue. Our education, documentation and developer relations builds on this vision. We see 40 million unfilled skilled jobs in the industry and that number will grow to 85 million by 2030. We want to make training easily accessible and address the skills shortage and make it easy to learn and get into technology. We want to be that easy path to learning and career growth
Tell more more about the learner experience and your philosophy?
We have 4 Broad philosophies
- We recognize that there are many types of learners – some view content, some learn through testing/assessments and some learn by working with the software (learn by keyboard). We want to cater to all those styles.
- Modular training – fit learning into your lifestyle
- Staying Current - learn incrementally
- Frictionless - make it super easy for you to get to content. We don’t even ask you for your email.
What was your approach on labs? Who are the personas?
We're very grateful to be partnering with Instruqt. It's interactive, tied to the LMS, and allows seamless access to Atlas (our data cloud service). Allow for a multiple types of labs (cloud labs, on-prem labs, etc. We have done 187,070 lab sessions in the first 70 days with a 4.5 star rating Personas are Developers, Administrators, Architects across customers, partners, employees. Internal enablement is also important to us.
Why invest in this?
Developer centric community, certification messaging. It goes back to our passion for helping developers. We think that learning through the software directly is very important and very powerful. The proof of that is in the numbers that we just discussed.
What is the long view of Education?
Make education ubiquitous and a true enabler for software adoption and we have a multidimensional plan. Continue to grow our catalog of courses, labs, topical assets that we call Learning Bytes, quizzes, and certifications. More distribution through syndication. Through syndication we can get our content out where the learners are, drive more interactive learning experience, embed it closer to the product itself, grow out the Academia space to make it easy for current, and future people in tech to learn MongoDB.
Below is the full transcript of the conversation:
Welcome, everyone.
I'm TJ Randall, the Chief Customer Success Officer here at Instruqt. And welcome to this LinkedIn Live event.
Please as a reminder to use the comments functionality throughout the webinar and to get that started, why don't you go ahead and let us know where you're joining from? So I'm super excited to be here today with Raghu and we are going to talk about how they're leveraging Instruqt within MongoDB University.
So Instruqt is an all in one Product Growth suite. It is the secret sauce that Instruqt provides is hands-on learning in real sandbox environments, which gives learners the opportunity to work through real world scenarios. And then customers leverage this approach for lead generation, for sales enablement, self-service demos, and much more.
Instruqt’s been partnered with MongoDB since 2022 when we first started talking about this amazing initiative to change the way in which any developer can learn technology. Since then, MongoDB has gone live with MongoDB University. I'm so excited to be sitting here today with Raghu Viswanathan, the Vice President of Education at Academia and Documentation at MongoDB.
How are you, Raghu?
Good afternoon to you. I hope all's well.
I'm excellent. So we have an awful lot to cover today and we're so excited to talk about MongoDB. What you're what you're doing there is just it's incredible in terms of learning, engagement. So how about we start there? Do you want to tell me a little bit about education at MongoDB?
Yeah, absolutely. So at MongoDB, the Education Department is actually many different teams and all of them share a common passion for education and training people. The first group is MongoDB University, which you mentioned, and this is our online training business here at MongoDB. It's a free training business. And the idea is we like to provide a really a superior learning experience. You know, it's not just content, but it's also labs through Instruqt and it's also adding, quizzing and all the other capabilities that we can talk about later in the session. Your second area is MongoDB documentation, and so this is our official tech docs in the company. We have over 25,000 pages of documentation covering every piece of functionality. It's a very popular way to learn because developers like to go to documentation to take a look at content. And in the last area in the department is MongoDB Academia. And this is the function that has an outreach program to colleges and universities. And what we do here is we go after two specific audiences. One is our educators. So think of them as professors and instructors, and we want them to teach, document databases and talk about MongoDB in particular, ideally. And then our second audience underneath that are students. And we want to get to students where they are. Sometimes it's in the classroom, sometimes it's through student offers. And that many ways students use technology today. And we want to be where they are. So in a nutshell, like I said, all these three groups share this passion for learning, and that's how we’re made up here at MongoDB Education.
That's amazing it’s such a cultural thing. So why is this important to MongoDB?
Yeah, it's such a great question. And so, you know, if we step back and look at the world today, it's not a secret that really data and innovation is really where things are at. You know, any good business these days has a great sense of data and a great sense innovation, and we believe strongly that developers are at the center of that, because what happens is developers are the ones who are using the technology, using the data. And so and in many cases, sometimes they're the ones actually making the decisions about what to purchase. So developers are quite empowered these days and so for us at MongoDB, we want developers to be very successful. That's how we operate here. And so to keep that in mind, we want to make it easy for them. Our developer data platform is really designed to do exactly that. With that, developers can build great app applications focused on new features and focus on differentiation and not have to worry about the underlying infrastructure. So all of that's taken care of for you here. So that's the idea. And so Atlas is our underlying data management cloud service. It powers really for data platform. And within Atlas is the document data model, which is been a proven model that MongoDB has been talking about for nearly 15, 13 years, I should say, since 2010. And so and the proofs in the numbers, you know, we've had 300 million downloads of MongoDB, ten countries around the world. And so it's huge adoption. The company itself right now is about 4500 employees. We're over $1,000,000,000 in revenue. So you can see there's a lot of momentum essentially in terms of where we're going. For us, you know, education is a big enabler of how we how we see the world here. And and it fits beautifully into the into the company strategy. And, you know, and it's stepping back again, a macro level. You know, what we're noticing is that there are about 30 million skilled jobs that are just unfilled in this day and age. And we think that number is going to grow of skill jobs that are needed out there. So there's a real need for people to learn. There's a real need for people to go into tech. And we would love and we recognize that, you know, when you go into tech, here's lots of choices in terms of what you can learn And so our philosophy is that we want to make it very easy for someone to start learning with us, make it easy, get people excited, and then, you know, the right thing happens in the end. So this is really why we care about this, and it's really a central tenet of how we work here. It's so important too, right, giving people the opportunity to understand that, you know, technology is such a broad space and understanding, like there's different areas where you can engage and learn. It doesn't have to be, you know, that one thing. It can be multiple things. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So then obviously you're focusing, which is so important, right on learning or experience. Talk a little bit about that for me. Help me understand like what is your philosophy around learner experience?
Yes, I would say there's four underlying philosophies that we use here at MongoDB and we use this almost as a blueprint when we make decisions in terms of what we want to invest in.
The first one simply is that we recognize the different types of learners out there. Some people like to learn by watching video and having that type of human engagement type experience, and that's a completely valid way of learning. Some people like to learn directly by working with the product. You know, sometimes I say learn by keyboard, you know, just dive right in, start coding and learn that way. Another great way to learn. Some people like to learn through quizzes and assessments because they like to assess themselves and then wherever they're deficient, they just learn that portion of it. So that's another very legitimate way of learning. And some people go all the way out and they will just literally get certified first and try that and see where they're at. So what we recognize at MongoDB is that there's different styles of learners and it's really important to to the different styles. So that's one sort of guiding philosophy. The second philosophy for us is modularity. So we believe very strongly in this idea of small chunks of learning. So imagine that you only have 5 minutes to spare, maybe you have 7 minutes to spare, and you could be productive in those 5 minutes and learn something right away. So we don't feel this need to give you hours and hours of training upfront. If you have that kind of time, we have the content for you. But if you only have 5 minutes to spare, learn that way and learn in a repeated fashion, and that's completely okay with us. The third philosophy is what we call frictionless learning, and we believe we believe very strongly in this. You know, we want to make it very easy for people to get to our content. We've we've gotten to the point where we actually don't even ask you for an email to access our content now. So it's free learning, it's frictionless learning for to get to our content right away. And we believe the right thing happens when you do that. Because once you expose the learning, people see the technology nurture through the process and, you know, hopefully use it more. So we want learning just to be that enabler and catalyst to move things forward. And the last thing I’ll say as a philosophy, you know, what we recognize is, you know, because we're on the cloud these days, all cloud companies, we, us included, change technology very quickly and there's new features every quarter, literally. So as a learner, it's not productive to say, I need to relearn everything every quarter.
You know, I think of it as delta learning or incremental learning where you just sort of learn what you need to stay current on the technology. So we've invested in this concept called learning bytes, which sit parallel to our idea there. These are topical pieces of content and it's ways for you to stay current on the technology. So it's really a combination of these things, right? It's a style of learning. It's frictionless piece. It's the you know, it's the modularity and also the ability to stay current. And so what you're seeing in front of you here is just an experience of what a learning experience looks like. The top graphic in the slide shows you what our new videos look like. And you can see there's a very high production value in these videos and we also enable language subtitles. So if you want to see, listen to videos in English, but watch subtitles in Chinese, or maybe you want to read Korean or Spanish Portuguese. We actually have the ability to support multiple languages to help regional markets out there. The image in the bottom left is with you, with Instruqt. And we're very happy with our partnership with Instruqt and what we have is the ability for people to start our way. And a lab for us is a hands-on exercise. So what we do is we provide instructions in the right side of that image. And then on the left side we log you directly into Atlas, which is our cloud service, and you can start working with it right away. So it's a very, very great interface for us. It's worked out really well. The image in the middle, at the bottom row, it's what we call knowledge checks. So this is where we help learners assess themselves and see how they're progressing. And there's no penalty for failing or anything like that. You literally just take the quiz and keep taking it until you're satisfied. And the quizzes reinforce the learning that we offer. The learning through the videos, and it's all reinforced to our quizzing capability, and that leads to our certification at the end of the day. And then finally, the image on the right side is where we allow for a lot of supplemental assets that people would need. So in our world, because we cater to developers, we want to provide a lot of coding examples to make a combination of extra code, code assets, text assets and other reference assets that we include also. So all this is kind of connected in a single learning experience and I think that's been the value for us. Again, going back to catering to those styles and we have those experiences out there that are available there.
That's amazing. And you really it seems like surround the learner with a full experience.So like you said earlier, it's addressing how they like to learn.So multiple options but also who they are. Like even just the subtitles for the videos. What an amazing way to make sure that everybody benefits from that learning.
Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, we just want to make it available for everyone and it's okay. We love different learning styles. Of course. Of course.
You'll have to do a study next on which one tends to be more popular for what technology. And you could start your own quadrant in that way. Right?
So I think you're right. I think you're right. So what was your approach? The labs are amazing. How did you think about the personas as you sat down and said, how are we going to revolutionize this? Yeah, so, you know, the the labs have been amazing, by the way. So I do I do want to talk about that a little bit because what the labs are central to our learning experience because the developers love to code and getting them to code quickly is really, really important. And so for us, you know, when we went down the path of looking for a technology, we were looking for a technology that is easy to use and is very intuitive to use.
That's one. The second thing is the ability to have coding examples where where people can either type it themselves or literally cut and paste it across. Another thing that we wanted were type scripts where we could check the work that someone does. And then last but not least, we want to integrate it right back into the learning management system so that it's all integrated in one user experience, right? So what we don't want to do is send our learners in one direction for videos, one direction for labs, one direction for quizzes, and have this sort of scattershot learning model. But we wanted to just have a single experience. And so for us, Instruqt really checked off those boxes. It was really tremendous for us. And the proof is in the numbers. You mentioned it in your introduction. We have had over we've been live for exactly 90 days today or a 90th day. And in 90 days we've had over 180 actually 190,000 labs that we've had. And out of that, by the way, I should say that about 140,000 of those labs were complete. So it's the completion rate's very high. The lab usage rate right now is very high. And we're very, very pleased with that.
And if it is, you know, in addition to the features that you all have, I think part of the magic is back to the tenets of how we operate, which is simple labs, keep it short, make it easy to get to and let people feel that success in working with the technology and they can build on it from there. So for me, I think that's been sort of that the magic, if you will, the secret sauce, as you put it in your introduction of how this stuff kind of works. You mentioned personas, you know, so for us, you know, developer is the number one persona that we that we care about. But really, we have a lot of other personas. We have architects, we have administrators, we have analysts. We have many, many different people that are using MongoDB technology. For us, you know, we built content to cater to those audiences. The other dimension of the personas is that we recognize that we are you know, we're training partners, we're training customers, we are training individuals out there in the marketplace. We are training students. We're training instructors, different audience segments that we're catering to also. So for us, it's really a combination of recognizing those segments, recognizing the learning styles and just bringing it all together. Is really how we see it. That makes sense. And it's interesting.
The internal enablement piece, at least from Instruqt’s perspective, we see that an awful lot because again, we're hiring these great smart developers, for example, and we need to get them, you know, to be able to bend steel within our technology and leveraging a learning approach that you've taken. It's nice that you're able to do so for not only just your external folks and your partners and things like that, but also your internal employees.
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that because as I mentioned, you know, MongoDB is 4500 employees. We have a lot of wonderful technical people here. And so training them, it's just as important because if we can have 4500 well-trained employees, that's a force multiplier for us in the marketplace.
Right, because it's that much more, you know, great knowledge that's being imparted out there. So internal enablement has become just as important to us as our external audiences, you know? So we do both now. And so glad you highlighted them.
Of course, I think of it, we talk a lot about the developer experience and that really is a movement that's so just critical to to focus on what's the experience in terms of upskilling and learning. So why invest in this?
Like, why is this the mission for MongoDB? Yeah, it comes back to, you know, I think my introduction where, you know, we are very passionate about developers, we're very passionate about data and innovation. We recognize that education is a huge enabler of that and it's really furthering the core mission of MongoDB, which is why I enjoy working here. It's really there's a real passion here for education and wanting to train as many people as we can and do it in a very scalable kind of manner with a very rich experience and in a where we're providing a very modern learning style. And I think for us that's been, you know, why we made that investment. And then in the end, we want our learners to benefit from it, you know, and an easy way to benefit from it is to say that you being certified because by getting certified, what you're saying is that you are officially knowledgeable in MongoDB. You get a badge from us. You can put that on LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook. You can use that as part of your your job, your career, your job hunt If you're looking for a job. Whatever your status is, certification is always going to work for you.
You know, whether you're just trying to up level your job or reskilling or whatever you might be, and that's always my encouragement to people. You know, when people say, you know, Raghu, what do you recommend to get started? I say, you know, focus on being certified, right? And to get there, you need to take our content. You need to take our labs, you take our quizzes. And if you do all that right, you will you know, you will do well in the exam, get certified. And then that's the launching pad for where you want to go.
Right. And I think tied to the content that you're building, one of the things that's so impressive is how relevant it is to real world experience. So it's not just a certification like, you know, you're able to answer the quizzes, but if I'm an employer and I look at somebody who's applying for a job and you're like, this person really understands how MongoDB is applicable for example, to an enterprise customer who is leveraging the technology.
Absolutely. And this is, I think, where the lab investment has been so important to us, because the best way to demonstrate real world skills is by giving you exercises and seeing if you could do it. And so, you know, skill validation is really important. Knowledge validation is one thing, but skill validation is something else. And so we like to do both here at MongoDB and this is where I think Instruqt has been great for us, you know, to let people literally play with the technology, try it out and prove that they know what they're doing. And so it's a very nurturing environment. So learning your pace and do it right for your style. I can't wait to see the first social media post where somebody declares, you know, I was able to capture this great new job because of my certification that Mongo DB University.
Oh, absolutely. You know, that warms my heart when I hear that, right? It's all about and this is why I love being and learning, because it's the human impact, you know, the positive human impact. You know, we've all benefited from learning in different ways, whether it's getting that new job. Like you said, maybe it's up leveling where you're at right now, maybe it's getting promoted, you know, whatever it is. And in some cases, it's for some people, it's literally life changing. You know, they they go from one economic status to another economic status, And so there's all those wonderful stories behind education. This is why I love the human side of it.
Yeah. For sure. For sure.
And do you find that your learning path takes you through a set of courses like you're kind of understand the technology and then how would I apply
that in certain situations or, you know, in my job role?
Yeah, absolutely. So what we do with our learning paths is you'll recognize there are courses in there. And then within the courses we have this concept of units and lessons. So a lesson is the most atomic piece of learning that we have. And so this is the thing that I mentioned before, where it's more it's the 5 to 7 minute range. But with the lesson, is a lab. So you are learning something and you're practicing something very quickly. And then with that is also a quick two question quiz to check your level of knowledge. So all that's wrapped into a modular learning experience that you can go through quickly and then if you've got more time, take another lesson. If you have less time, come back next time and we'll be here waiting for you. So it's really set up that way to make it easy for you.
And by the way, I’m encouraging here for the audience if there's any questions for you as well to add those in. I am watching for that. But of course, I have 100 questions for you. So that learning path absolutely makes sense. What are some of the kind of metrics that you've seen to date? Like how are your users behavior?
So, you know, one things we're very particular about here is understanding what is good, right? We ask ourselves that question internally, like what does good look like is a question that comes up quite a bit. So for us, you know, the way we have this concept of what we call North Star Metrics, which are three broad metrics that we care about a lot. The first one is quality, and we care about the quality of our labs and we care about the quality of our content. So and we have a five star rating scale. So I'm very pleased to say that our content is about 4.75 stars out of five, and that's after over 70,000 reviews of our content just in 90 days. So it's not just one or two people saying this.
It's literally a lot of people saying this, which is which is good and same for the labs.You know, we have a high rating, 4.5 on our labs.A lot of happy faces in your Instruqt scoreboard there.So we like that at lot.And so and we're very vigilant about this. You know, we met down to the video and lab individual video, individual lab level because we want to look at every single asset and make sure that every single asset is delivering quality because it's sort of look at quality at a macro level and macro numbers can hide micro numbers.
So quality is one broad metric. The second one, I would say, is engagement. So we're very particular about making sure the site is appealing. If it's enticing for learners to come, they want to come back, be a repeat learner right now. So for us, our engagement numbers are also very high. So we have at least 15, 20 minutes of engagement time for a lot of our learners in lessons right now. And so we're very excited about that. And then from there, I think we're also looking into the number of people that get certified. And so we want to track that business and that business is now tripling for us also. And so we we’re just in the space where we're passionate, we're passionate about engagement, we're passionate about helping people get certified if they choose to do so based on the conversation we just had. And so that's really what good looks like to us, you know, and and we have a ton of other metrics that we look at, of course, you know, so it's not just, you know, three things, but it's good text, I think, you know, and I always encourage teams to have that because then it sort of rallies a team and keeps people going forward in the same direction. Absolutely. Well, it sounds like too by clearly having those those numbers in focus.
One thing I think thatit sounds like you're taking it for granted, which is a good thing. But having that product marketing piece in there as well joined into the team, it sounds like there's a really nice synergy there because as you talked about earlier, you know, all companies now, SaaS companies, especially. You can generate so many great features so fast. Then all of a sudden you don't want that to become a problem as well.And I think that is something important that you're doing there is your product marketing team is part of that conversation. And it sounds like what ends up happening is because you're focusing on the learner and what you want them to learn, it's almost like you can almost check that box, say, okay, we're not only creating great features for our communities, we're also aligning to making sure people can use them and leverage them.
You know, that's really well said. You know, it's that alignment is a word that we use inside the company is really important. Alignment with product management alignment product marketing, making sure that what we're building is something that people want at the end of the day. And to your point, that's exactly what we're trying to do. And, you know, we have this very what I call service mentality. You know, we want to make other people successful. So for us, it's really just an alignment. Education is a natural fit for something like that. So yeah, you're right. That is a guiding principle, how we work.
Was there any learnings that you can kind of think of now that you're live and you have such, you know, the amount of numbers and the amount of content, you know, and as we talked about earlier, as you look forward, any learnings for the when you first started out that you might have wanted to go back to and say, oh, we probably should have considered this?
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, right now I feel like the decisions that we made were very solid honestly all the way through. You know, there was a lot of lessons learned in building this content, checking quality, reviewing with subject matter experts. You know, there's a lot of work behind the scenes that really happens. So we're always just looking for efficiencies, you know, in how to do that, you know, I mean, we normally the velocity is important, but velocity doesn't mean less quality for us. It's velocity with high quality is kind of what we care about. So for us, I think our lessons learned have been mostly around just fine tuning our processes and doing more with that. And we're just excited to continue to grow that catalog.
And one question that came through was around you had talked a little bit earlier about developers wouldn't have to deal with infrastructure, so they could kind of jump right in. And then I would imagine if, you know, some of the administrator courses are highly focused on infrastructure. So do you mind kind of talking a little bit about how you leverage Instruqt for those kind of almost two different experiences, when it comes to the actual MongoDB infrastructure?
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, the wonderful thing about Atlas is that, you know, the underlying workings of AWS or GCP or Azure, you can use any of those cloud services and you can even mix and match them if you want in your in your deployment, which is an incredible capability by the way. I was I was so wowed by it when I actually walked into MongoDB, I couldn't believe that was the case. It's that seamless in terms of how you can work with cloud services. And so for us, you know, the you're right about the administrative courses, you know, so we have, you know, two flavors. We have one that's for our Atlas product. And there it's everything's seamless. And we teach you how to do it through Atlas, but you don't really have to worry much about the underlying infrastructure at all with that. And you can of course, we have content for that too, if you care about it, but if you just want to use it out of the box and do it that way, we teach you how to do that. And then you've mentioned different styles of labs, you know, and we do have that too. You know, we do have an on premise product also. Which is also popular. So we have on premise labs also in addition to Cloud Labs. And I think this for me has been one of the powers of working with Instruqt and delighted to work with you all because you've been very flexible in letting us design different styles of labs out there, whether it's for cloud, on prem and different use case scenarios. And, you know, we've even extended our live infrastructure around you to allow for all these capabilities. So for us, that's been a big win.
One of the things I'm so curious about is if I'm inside of, let's say, a large enterprise and we're moving to MongoDB. So it's a company that's transitioning onto this technology. It would be so interesting to participate in some of those learnings because that's really that persona. There are probably developers who are very successful and have great technical skills, but it's like, guess what? You're going to learn a whole brand new thing and wouldn’t it be just an amazing thing to be able to be part of that upskilling journey?
Because as you talked about today, there really is a clear path for success. It's like, okay, Mr. or Mrs. Developer, when you're done with this, these are the things that you're going to be able to accomplish.
Yeah.And I think that's a real valuable use case for people. It's so true because I mean, you know, while I'm making all this training ubiquitous and generally available for free and all this the company is doing something similar where we're making it easy for you to try out our software, get started, build that first workload and get comfortable with it, and then move from a workload into a testing scenario, into a production scenario. Right, right. So that's yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there's a whole journey there, a lifecycle journey that it's great to be a part of.
Yeah.
And I think the other side of that is the business value side of that. I imagine sitting on the, you know, you're a CIO or a CTO and you're like, you know, thinking, how are we going to get there? And having something like this in your back pocket to say, I know we're going to get there because we have a great way to learn it.
Yeah. And it's so true. And I think comes back to my original point, which is, you know, CIOs, make decisions of course, but a lot of decisions are influenced by developers. At the end of the day, those choices of technology are driven by who makes it easy for you to use it. And prove out to people, this technology's great. And that's what I love about MongoDB. You know, we just, you know, make it easy for you to get started with our trials, target learning. We want you to experience our software straight up, you know, and we just want you to actually experience it and get started and and you'll see your, you know, and, you know, you it to yourself that you'll enjoy it. Sure. What a great idea. Get people excited about it and get their hands-on.
Exactly. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
This was wonderful to hear about what you're doing there.
And I think this is just a journey that's going to be a lot of fun to follow
as more and more people come and join.
Yeah, and thank you also for the partnership.
I really enjoyed it and thank you for being part of our journey too.
We recently had the pleasure of hosting Raghu Viswanathan, VP Education, Academia and Documentation at MongoDB, on our latest LinkedIn Live to discuss developer education.
On this page, you can watch the entire conversation on-demand in the video below, read a summarized overview of the webinar, or scroll further down to read the transcript in its entirety.
Here is a summarized overview of the conversation:
Tell me about Education at MongoDB?
Education Group at MongoDB is made up of 3 functions all teams share a common passion for educating people on MongoDB.
MongoDB University – online training function that provides free training with a rich learning experience which includes our lab technology (hands on exercises).
MongoDB Docs – online tech docs which is a huge source of learning for Developers.
MongoDB Academia – outreach program to colleges and universities. We work with professors to include Document Databases into their curriculum with MongoDB as the exemplar for that and we also provide ways to students to experience MongoDB faster by going where they are through hackathons, student offers and in the classroom.
Why is this important to MongoDB?
Data and Innovation drive the economy and developers are the center of this. MongoDB is a Developer Centric company - passionate about developers and making them successful. Our Developer Data platform is designed to help developers focus on building great applications with great features and focus on differentiation. Developers don’t have to worry about the underlying infrastructure. We use Atlas, our Managed Database cloud service to power that infrastructure.
The underpinning of that is the Document Data Model which MongoDB has been championing since 2010. The proof is in the numbers over 300 million downloads from over 100 countries, 4500 employees and over $1B in revenue. Our education, documentation and developer relations builds on this vision. We see 40 million unfilled skilled jobs in the industry and that number will grow to 85 million by 2030. We want to make training easily accessible and address the skills shortage and make it easy to learn and get into technology. We want to be that easy path to learning and career growth
Tell more more about the learner experience and your philosophy?
We have 4 Broad philosophies
- We recognize that there are many types of learners – some view content, some learn through testing/assessments and some learn by working with the software (learn by keyboard). We want to cater to all those styles.
- Modular training – fit learning into your lifestyle
- Staying Current - learn incrementally
- Frictionless - make it super easy for you to get to content. We don’t even ask you for your email.
What was your approach on labs? Who are the personas?
We're very grateful to be partnering with Instruqt. It's interactive, tied to the LMS, and allows seamless access to Atlas (our data cloud service). Allow for a multiple types of labs (cloud labs, on-prem labs, etc. We have done 187,070 lab sessions in the first 70 days with a 4.5 star rating Personas are Developers, Administrators, Architects across customers, partners, employees. Internal enablement is also important to us.
Why invest in this?
Developer centric community, certification messaging. It goes back to our passion for helping developers. We think that learning through the software directly is very important and very powerful. The proof of that is in the numbers that we just discussed.
What is the long view of Education?
Make education ubiquitous and a true enabler for software adoption and we have a multidimensional plan. Continue to grow our catalog of courses, labs, topical assets that we call Learning Bytes, quizzes, and certifications. More distribution through syndication. Through syndication we can get our content out where the learners are, drive more interactive learning experience, embed it closer to the product itself, grow out the Academia space to make it easy for current, and future people in tech to learn MongoDB.
Below is the full transcript of the conversation:
Welcome, everyone.
I'm TJ Randall, the Chief Customer Success Officer here at Instruqt. And welcome to this LinkedIn Live event.
Please as a reminder to use the comments functionality throughout the webinar and to get that started, why don't you go ahead and let us know where you're joining from? So I'm super excited to be here today with Raghu and we are going to talk about how they're leveraging Instruqt within MongoDB University.
So Instruqt is an all in one Product Growth suite. It is the secret sauce that Instruqt provides is hands-on learning in real sandbox environments, which gives learners the opportunity to work through real world scenarios. And then customers leverage this approach for lead generation, for sales enablement, self-service demos, and much more.
Instruqt’s been partnered with MongoDB since 2022 when we first started talking about this amazing initiative to change the way in which any developer can learn technology. Since then, MongoDB has gone live with MongoDB University. I'm so excited to be sitting here today with Raghu Viswanathan, the Vice President of Education at Academia and Documentation at MongoDB.
How are you, Raghu?
Good afternoon to you. I hope all's well.
I'm excellent. So we have an awful lot to cover today and we're so excited to talk about MongoDB. What you're what you're doing there is just it's incredible in terms of learning, engagement. So how about we start there? Do you want to tell me a little bit about education at MongoDB?
Yeah, absolutely. So at MongoDB, the Education Department is actually many different teams and all of them share a common passion for education and training people. The first group is MongoDB University, which you mentioned, and this is our online training business here at MongoDB. It's a free training business. And the idea is we like to provide a really a superior learning experience. You know, it's not just content, but it's also labs through Instruqt and it's also adding, quizzing and all the other capabilities that we can talk about later in the session. Your second area is MongoDB documentation, and so this is our official tech docs in the company. We have over 25,000 pages of documentation covering every piece of functionality. It's a very popular way to learn because developers like to go to documentation to take a look at content. And in the last area in the department is MongoDB Academia. And this is the function that has an outreach program to colleges and universities. And what we do here is we go after two specific audiences. One is our educators. So think of them as professors and instructors, and we want them to teach, document databases and talk about MongoDB in particular, ideally. And then our second audience underneath that are students. And we want to get to students where they are. Sometimes it's in the classroom, sometimes it's through student offers. And that many ways students use technology today. And we want to be where they are. So in a nutshell, like I said, all these three groups share this passion for learning, and that's how we’re made up here at MongoDB Education.
That's amazing it’s such a cultural thing. So why is this important to MongoDB?
Yeah, it's such a great question. And so, you know, if we step back and look at the world today, it's not a secret that really data and innovation is really where things are at. You know, any good business these days has a great sense of data and a great sense innovation, and we believe strongly that developers are at the center of that, because what happens is developers are the ones who are using the technology, using the data. And so and in many cases, sometimes they're the ones actually making the decisions about what to purchase. So developers are quite empowered these days and so for us at MongoDB, we want developers to be very successful. That's how we operate here. And so to keep that in mind, we want to make it easy for them. Our developer data platform is really designed to do exactly that. With that, developers can build great app applications focused on new features and focus on differentiation and not have to worry about the underlying infrastructure. So all of that's taken care of for you here. So that's the idea. And so Atlas is our underlying data management cloud service. It powers really for data platform. And within Atlas is the document data model, which is been a proven model that MongoDB has been talking about for nearly 15, 13 years, I should say, since 2010. And so and the proofs in the numbers, you know, we've had 300 million downloads of MongoDB, ten countries around the world. And so it's huge adoption. The company itself right now is about 4500 employees. We're over $1,000,000,000 in revenue. So you can see there's a lot of momentum essentially in terms of where we're going. For us, you know, education is a big enabler of how we how we see the world here. And and it fits beautifully into the into the company strategy. And, you know, and it's stepping back again, a macro level. You know, what we're noticing is that there are about 30 million skilled jobs that are just unfilled in this day and age. And we think that number is going to grow of skill jobs that are needed out there. So there's a real need for people to learn. There's a real need for people to go into tech. And we would love and we recognize that, you know, when you go into tech, here's lots of choices in terms of what you can learn And so our philosophy is that we want to make it very easy for someone to start learning with us, make it easy, get people excited, and then, you know, the right thing happens in the end. So this is really why we care about this, and it's really a central tenet of how we work here. It's so important too, right, giving people the opportunity to understand that, you know, technology is such a broad space and understanding, like there's different areas where you can engage and learn. It doesn't have to be, you know, that one thing. It can be multiple things. Absolutely. Absolutely.
So then obviously you're focusing, which is so important, right on learning or experience. Talk a little bit about that for me. Help me understand like what is your philosophy around learner experience?
Yes, I would say there's four underlying philosophies that we use here at MongoDB and we use this almost as a blueprint when we make decisions in terms of what we want to invest in.
The first one simply is that we recognize the different types of learners out there. Some people like to learn by watching video and having that type of human engagement type experience, and that's a completely valid way of learning. Some people like to learn directly by working with the product. You know, sometimes I say learn by keyboard, you know, just dive right in, start coding and learn that way. Another great way to learn. Some people like to learn through quizzes and assessments because they like to assess themselves and then wherever they're deficient, they just learn that portion of it. So that's another very legitimate way of learning. And some people go all the way out and they will just literally get certified first and try that and see where they're at. So what we recognize at MongoDB is that there's different styles of learners and it's really important to to the different styles. So that's one sort of guiding philosophy. The second philosophy for us is modularity. So we believe very strongly in this idea of small chunks of learning. So imagine that you only have 5 minutes to spare, maybe you have 7 minutes to spare, and you could be productive in those 5 minutes and learn something right away. So we don't feel this need to give you hours and hours of training upfront. If you have that kind of time, we have the content for you. But if you only have 5 minutes to spare, learn that way and learn in a repeated fashion, and that's completely okay with us. The third philosophy is what we call frictionless learning, and we believe we believe very strongly in this. You know, we want to make it very easy for people to get to our content. We've we've gotten to the point where we actually don't even ask you for an email to access our content now. So it's free learning, it's frictionless learning for to get to our content right away. And we believe the right thing happens when you do that. Because once you expose the learning, people see the technology nurture through the process and, you know, hopefully use it more. So we want learning just to be that enabler and catalyst to move things forward. And the last thing I’ll say as a philosophy, you know, what we recognize is, you know, because we're on the cloud these days, all cloud companies, we, us included, change technology very quickly and there's new features every quarter, literally. So as a learner, it's not productive to say, I need to relearn everything every quarter.
You know, I think of it as delta learning or incremental learning where you just sort of learn what you need to stay current on the technology. So we've invested in this concept called learning bytes, which sit parallel to our idea there. These are topical pieces of content and it's ways for you to stay current on the technology. So it's really a combination of these things, right? It's a style of learning. It's frictionless piece. It's the you know, it's the modularity and also the ability to stay current. And so what you're seeing in front of you here is just an experience of what a learning experience looks like. The top graphic in the slide shows you what our new videos look like. And you can see there's a very high production value in these videos and we also enable language subtitles. So if you want to see, listen to videos in English, but watch subtitles in Chinese, or maybe you want to read Korean or Spanish Portuguese. We actually have the ability to support multiple languages to help regional markets out there. The image in the bottom left is with you, with Instruqt. And we're very happy with our partnership with Instruqt and what we have is the ability for people to start our way. And a lab for us is a hands-on exercise. So what we do is we provide instructions in the right side of that image. And then on the left side we log you directly into Atlas, which is our cloud service, and you can start working with it right away. So it's a very, very great interface for us. It's worked out really well. The image in the middle, at the bottom row, it's what we call knowledge checks. So this is where we help learners assess themselves and see how they're progressing. And there's no penalty for failing or anything like that. You literally just take the quiz and keep taking it until you're satisfied. And the quizzes reinforce the learning that we offer. The learning through the videos, and it's all reinforced to our quizzing capability, and that leads to our certification at the end of the day. And then finally, the image on the right side is where we allow for a lot of supplemental assets that people would need. So in our world, because we cater to developers, we want to provide a lot of coding examples to make a combination of extra code, code assets, text assets and other reference assets that we include also. So all this is kind of connected in a single learning experience and I think that's been the value for us. Again, going back to catering to those styles and we have those experiences out there that are available there.
That's amazing. And you really it seems like surround the learner with a full experience.So like you said earlier, it's addressing how they like to learn.So multiple options but also who they are. Like even just the subtitles for the videos. What an amazing way to make sure that everybody benefits from that learning.
Yeah, absolutely. That's, you know, we just want to make it available for everyone and it's okay. We love different learning styles. Of course. Of course.
You'll have to do a study next on which one tends to be more popular for what technology. And you could start your own quadrant in that way. Right?
So I think you're right. I think you're right. So what was your approach? The labs are amazing. How did you think about the personas as you sat down and said, how are we going to revolutionize this? Yeah, so, you know, the the labs have been amazing, by the way. So I do I do want to talk about that a little bit because what the labs are central to our learning experience because the developers love to code and getting them to code quickly is really, really important. And so for us, you know, when we went down the path of looking for a technology, we were looking for a technology that is easy to use and is very intuitive to use.
That's one. The second thing is the ability to have coding examples where where people can either type it themselves or literally cut and paste it across. Another thing that we wanted were type scripts where we could check the work that someone does. And then last but not least, we want to integrate it right back into the learning management system so that it's all integrated in one user experience, right? So what we don't want to do is send our learners in one direction for videos, one direction for labs, one direction for quizzes, and have this sort of scattershot learning model. But we wanted to just have a single experience. And so for us, Instruqt really checked off those boxes. It was really tremendous for us. And the proof is in the numbers. You mentioned it in your introduction. We have had over we've been live for exactly 90 days today or a 90th day. And in 90 days we've had over 180 actually 190,000 labs that we've had. And out of that, by the way, I should say that about 140,000 of those labs were complete. So it's the completion rate's very high. The lab usage rate right now is very high. And we're very, very pleased with that.
And if it is, you know, in addition to the features that you all have, I think part of the magic is back to the tenets of how we operate, which is simple labs, keep it short, make it easy to get to and let people feel that success in working with the technology and they can build on it from there. So for me, I think that's been sort of that the magic, if you will, the secret sauce, as you put it in your introduction of how this stuff kind of works. You mentioned personas, you know, so for us, you know, developer is the number one persona that we that we care about. But really, we have a lot of other personas. We have architects, we have administrators, we have analysts. We have many, many different people that are using MongoDB technology. For us, you know, we built content to cater to those audiences. The other dimension of the personas is that we recognize that we are you know, we're training partners, we're training customers, we are training individuals out there in the marketplace. We are training students. We're training instructors, different audience segments that we're catering to also. So for us, it's really a combination of recognizing those segments, recognizing the learning styles and just bringing it all together. Is really how we see it. That makes sense. And it's interesting.
The internal enablement piece, at least from Instruqt’s perspective, we see that an awful lot because again, we're hiring these great smart developers, for example, and we need to get them, you know, to be able to bend steel within our technology and leveraging a learning approach that you've taken. It's nice that you're able to do so for not only just your external folks and your partners and things like that, but also your internal employees.
Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that because as I mentioned, you know, MongoDB is 4500 employees. We have a lot of wonderful technical people here. And so training them, it's just as important because if we can have 4500 well-trained employees, that's a force multiplier for us in the marketplace.
Right, because it's that much more, you know, great knowledge that's being imparted out there. So internal enablement has become just as important to us as our external audiences, you know? So we do both now. And so glad you highlighted them.
Of course, I think of it, we talk a lot about the developer experience and that really is a movement that's so just critical to to focus on what's the experience in terms of upskilling and learning. So why invest in this?
Like, why is this the mission for MongoDB? Yeah, it comes back to, you know, I think my introduction where, you know, we are very passionate about developers, we're very passionate about data and innovation. We recognize that education is a huge enabler of that and it's really furthering the core mission of MongoDB, which is why I enjoy working here. It's really there's a real passion here for education and wanting to train as many people as we can and do it in a very scalable kind of manner with a very rich experience and in a where we're providing a very modern learning style. And I think for us that's been, you know, why we made that investment. And then in the end, we want our learners to benefit from it, you know, and an easy way to benefit from it is to say that you being certified because by getting certified, what you're saying is that you are officially knowledgeable in MongoDB. You get a badge from us. You can put that on LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook. You can use that as part of your your job, your career, your job hunt If you're looking for a job. Whatever your status is, certification is always going to work for you.
You know, whether you're just trying to up level your job or reskilling or whatever you might be, and that's always my encouragement to people. You know, when people say, you know, Raghu, what do you recommend to get started? I say, you know, focus on being certified, right? And to get there, you need to take our content. You need to take our labs, you take our quizzes. And if you do all that right, you will you know, you will do well in the exam, get certified. And then that's the launching pad for where you want to go.
Right. And I think tied to the content that you're building, one of the things that's so impressive is how relevant it is to real world experience. So it's not just a certification like, you know, you're able to answer the quizzes, but if I'm an employer and I look at somebody who's applying for a job and you're like, this person really understands how MongoDB is applicable for example, to an enterprise customer who is leveraging the technology.
Absolutely. And this is, I think, where the lab investment has been so important to us, because the best way to demonstrate real world skills is by giving you exercises and seeing if you could do it. And so, you know, skill validation is really important. Knowledge validation is one thing, but skill validation is something else. And so we like to do both here at MongoDB and this is where I think Instruqt has been great for us, you know, to let people literally play with the technology, try it out and prove that they know what they're doing. And so it's a very nurturing environment. So learning your pace and do it right for your style. I can't wait to see the first social media post where somebody declares, you know, I was able to capture this great new job because of my certification that Mongo DB University.
Oh, absolutely. You know, that warms my heart when I hear that, right? It's all about and this is why I love being and learning, because it's the human impact, you know, the positive human impact. You know, we've all benefited from learning in different ways, whether it's getting that new job. Like you said, maybe it's up leveling where you're at right now, maybe it's getting promoted, you know, whatever it is. And in some cases, it's for some people, it's literally life changing. You know, they they go from one economic status to another economic status, And so there's all those wonderful stories behind education. This is why I love the human side of it.
Yeah. For sure. For sure.
And do you find that your learning path takes you through a set of courses like you're kind of understand the technology and then how would I apply
that in certain situations or, you know, in my job role?
Yeah, absolutely. So what we do with our learning paths is you'll recognize there are courses in there. And then within the courses we have this concept of units and lessons. So a lesson is the most atomic piece of learning that we have. And so this is the thing that I mentioned before, where it's more it's the 5 to 7 minute range. But with the lesson, is a lab. So you are learning something and you're practicing something very quickly. And then with that is also a quick two question quiz to check your level of knowledge. So all that's wrapped into a modular learning experience that you can go through quickly and then if you've got more time, take another lesson. If you have less time, come back next time and we'll be here waiting for you. So it's really set up that way to make it easy for you.
And by the way, I’m encouraging here for the audience if there's any questions for you as well to add those in. I am watching for that. But of course, I have 100 questions for you. So that learning path absolutely makes sense. What are some of the kind of metrics that you've seen to date? Like how are your users behavior?
So, you know, one things we're very particular about here is understanding what is good, right? We ask ourselves that question internally, like what does good look like is a question that comes up quite a bit. So for us, you know, the way we have this concept of what we call North Star Metrics, which are three broad metrics that we care about a lot. The first one is quality, and we care about the quality of our labs and we care about the quality of our content. So and we have a five star rating scale. So I'm very pleased to say that our content is about 4.75 stars out of five, and that's after over 70,000 reviews of our content just in 90 days. So it's not just one or two people saying this.
It's literally a lot of people saying this, which is which is good and same for the labs.You know, we have a high rating, 4.5 on our labs.A lot of happy faces in your Instruqt scoreboard there.So we like that at lot.And so and we're very vigilant about this. You know, we met down to the video and lab individual video, individual lab level because we want to look at every single asset and make sure that every single asset is delivering quality because it's sort of look at quality at a macro level and macro numbers can hide micro numbers.
So quality is one broad metric. The second one, I would say, is engagement. So we're very particular about making sure the site is appealing. If it's enticing for learners to come, they want to come back, be a repeat learner right now. So for us, our engagement numbers are also very high. So we have at least 15, 20 minutes of engagement time for a lot of our learners in lessons right now. And so we're very excited about that. And then from there, I think we're also looking into the number of people that get certified. And so we want to track that business and that business is now tripling for us also. And so we we’re just in the space where we're passionate, we're passionate about engagement, we're passionate about helping people get certified if they choose to do so based on the conversation we just had. And so that's really what good looks like to us, you know, and and we have a ton of other metrics that we look at, of course, you know, so it's not just, you know, three things, but it's good text, I think, you know, and I always encourage teams to have that because then it sort of rallies a team and keeps people going forward in the same direction. Absolutely. Well, it sounds like too by clearly having those those numbers in focus.
One thing I think thatit sounds like you're taking it for granted, which is a good thing. But having that product marketing piece in there as well joined into the team, it sounds like there's a really nice synergy there because as you talked about earlier, you know, all companies now, SaaS companies, especially. You can generate so many great features so fast. Then all of a sudden you don't want that to become a problem as well.And I think that is something important that you're doing there is your product marketing team is part of that conversation. And it sounds like what ends up happening is because you're focusing on the learner and what you want them to learn, it's almost like you can almost check that box, say, okay, we're not only creating great features for our communities, we're also aligning to making sure people can use them and leverage them.
You know, that's really well said. You know, it's that alignment is a word that we use inside the company is really important. Alignment with product management alignment product marketing, making sure that what we're building is something that people want at the end of the day. And to your point, that's exactly what we're trying to do. And, you know, we have this very what I call service mentality. You know, we want to make other people successful. So for us, it's really just an alignment. Education is a natural fit for something like that. So yeah, you're right. That is a guiding principle, how we work.
Was there any learnings that you can kind of think of now that you're live and you have such, you know, the amount of numbers and the amount of content, you know, and as we talked about earlier, as you look forward, any learnings for the when you first started out that you might have wanted to go back to and say, oh, we probably should have considered this?
Yeah, that's a great question. You know, right now I feel like the decisions that we made were very solid honestly all the way through. You know, there was a lot of lessons learned in building this content, checking quality, reviewing with subject matter experts. You know, there's a lot of work behind the scenes that really happens. So we're always just looking for efficiencies, you know, in how to do that, you know, I mean, we normally the velocity is important, but velocity doesn't mean less quality for us. It's velocity with high quality is kind of what we care about. So for us, I think our lessons learned have been mostly around just fine tuning our processes and doing more with that. And we're just excited to continue to grow that catalog.
And one question that came through was around you had talked a little bit earlier about developers wouldn't have to deal with infrastructure, so they could kind of jump right in. And then I would imagine if, you know, some of the administrator courses are highly focused on infrastructure. So do you mind kind of talking a little bit about how you leverage Instruqt for those kind of almost two different experiences, when it comes to the actual MongoDB infrastructure?
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, the wonderful thing about Atlas is that, you know, the underlying workings of AWS or GCP or Azure, you can use any of those cloud services and you can even mix and match them if you want in your in your deployment, which is an incredible capability by the way. I was I was so wowed by it when I actually walked into MongoDB, I couldn't believe that was the case. It's that seamless in terms of how you can work with cloud services. And so for us, you know, the you're right about the administrative courses, you know, so we have, you know, two flavors. We have one that's for our Atlas product. And there it's everything's seamless. And we teach you how to do it through Atlas, but you don't really have to worry much about the underlying infrastructure at all with that. And you can of course, we have content for that too, if you care about it, but if you just want to use it out of the box and do it that way, we teach you how to do that. And then you've mentioned different styles of labs, you know, and we do have that too. You know, we do have an on premise product also. Which is also popular. So we have on premise labs also in addition to Cloud Labs. And I think this for me has been one of the powers of working with Instruqt and delighted to work with you all because you've been very flexible in letting us design different styles of labs out there, whether it's for cloud, on prem and different use case scenarios. And, you know, we've even extended our live infrastructure around you to allow for all these capabilities. So for us, that's been a big win.
One of the things I'm so curious about is if I'm inside of, let's say, a large enterprise and we're moving to MongoDB. So it's a company that's transitioning onto this technology. It would be so interesting to participate in some of those learnings because that's really that persona. There are probably developers who are very successful and have great technical skills, but it's like, guess what? You're going to learn a whole brand new thing and wouldn’t it be just an amazing thing to be able to be part of that upskilling journey?
Because as you talked about today, there really is a clear path for success. It's like, okay, Mr. or Mrs. Developer, when you're done with this, these are the things that you're going to be able to accomplish.
Yeah.And I think that's a real valuable use case for people. It's so true because I mean, you know, while I'm making all this training ubiquitous and generally available for free and all this the company is doing something similar where we're making it easy for you to try out our software, get started, build that first workload and get comfortable with it, and then move from a workload into a testing scenario, into a production scenario. Right, right. So that's yeah, you're absolutely right. I think there's a whole journey there, a lifecycle journey that it's great to be a part of.
Yeah.
And I think the other side of that is the business value side of that. I imagine sitting on the, you know, you're a CIO or a CTO and you're like, you know, thinking, how are we going to get there? And having something like this in your back pocket to say, I know we're going to get there because we have a great way to learn it.
Yeah. And it's so true. And I think comes back to my original point, which is, you know, CIOs, make decisions of course, but a lot of decisions are influenced by developers. At the end of the day, those choices of technology are driven by who makes it easy for you to use it. And prove out to people, this technology's great. And that's what I love about MongoDB. You know, we just, you know, make it easy for you to get started with our trials, target learning. We want you to experience our software straight up, you know, and we just want you to actually experience it and get started and and you'll see your, you know, and, you know, you it to yourself that you'll enjoy it. Sure. What a great idea. Get people excited about it and get their hands-on.
Exactly. Well, thank you so much for your time today.
This was wonderful to hear about what you're doing there.
And I think this is just a journey that's going to be a lot of fun to follow
as more and more people come and join.
Yeah, and thank you also for the partnership.
I really enjoyed it and thank you for being part of our journey too.
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